This Is Part 8 in the Jo-Bert Saga. Jola, I think that by Sunday every thing should be OK for you to take some time and write up a message about the tank and how everything is doing. The addition of two more corals should not really upset things that much. But then we never know. The ORP and the pH and the O2 levels will tell us. Check those nitrates too pls. They still seem a little high, and I am surprised they did not come down after the water change. You may want to check them again before adding the two more corals. I understand you got another Elegance and move some corals around in the tank. Pls give us some readings on the tank now that the extra coral has been in there for a while. How is everything doing ? Albert Albert, Ran a whole series of tests, here are the results : Sunday June 18th, 3pm ORP- 474 Nitrate- >10ppm Temp- 80 degrees pH- 8.36 Nitrite- 0 dKH- 12 degrees Ammo- 0 SG- 1.025 O2- 8 mg/l Ca- 525 PO4- -Bare- Trace Jola Jola, I hate you () ... considering the tank is quite young ... those are some excellent results ... well done! I would suggest you keep going with the x-phosphate to really take the PO4 down but you must be happy. Are you still using carbon? That Belgian stuff isn't too bad really BTW, how are you lighting your tank? Andy Andy, Lighting consists of 2 Vitalite Power Twists, 1 Coralife 50/50, and a Coralife Magtinic. All 48" 40 watt floursent tubes. I am wondering if they have lost their intensity. They are about 4-5 months old. For sure dont hate me! The numbers on the test results might be good, but you sure cant prove it by how unhappy the "reefies" are! Albert told me to take the carbon out this am, so I did. Andy, I will agree, that Belgian stuff is indeed really great! I must commend Albert on his knowledge and talents! Jola Jola, Hmmm, I guess that the bulbs are maybe a month or so away from needing being replaced. BTW I know I have got it stored somewhere but how deep is your tank? You have got a fair amount of light dependent animals to rely on flor's IMO. Andy Andy, The tank is 21 1/2" from the -very- top to the -very- bottom. Jola Jola, Hmmm, sorry old gal () but I think you need more light. Andy Andy, I for sure dont want to talk about being old since Monday is my Birthday! And, I think that you are right about the lights. Albert is thinking about the lights too. Jola Albert, Really looked at Jo-Bert very closely today. Here is what I observed: Elegance #1- Basically not open, although not completely closed. Elegance #2- Introduced Friday- All day Saturday was blowed up like a balloon. Sunday , still somewhat blowed up, but not as much. Devil's Hand - Much, much better , doing fine. Cabbage- Just "so-so". Polyps in the Cup- Doing fine , and open. Green Open Brain- Doing fine, although not as big and showey as it was , since doing so much in the tank on Friday. Leather- Developing yellowish looking spots around the edges of it. Bubble- Not "Bubbley", although does not appear to be dying. Ricordia Mushrooms- Trumpeting towards the light. Cant help but wonder about the lighting causing this. They trumpet no matter if they are high in the tank or low in the tank. Jola Jola Thanks for your analysis of what the corals look like. I will put together an answer later today and give you some advice as to what I think you should do. Albert Albert, Yes, for sure think about this. Something is just not right, IMO. I mean, this morning, Im looking at an ORP of 480! Things just dont appear happy in the slightest. Jola Jola, I am giving it some thought looking at all parameters and will make some suggestions later on. Pls remove the carbon as I indicated to you earlier. Thanks. Let's see what the tank looks like tonite. Albert Albert, The Brain is looking better, Elegance #1 is looking better, Elegance #2 is a -little-bit better. The return from the sump is blowing little bitty air bubbles pretty bad , I cant figure out why. Jola Jola, Seems like things are stabilizing again after all the upheaval of movign rocks around etc ... Let's keep things as they are except for the water changes. Use your magic finger and things will get even better! Make sure the temp and the pH of the water you are adding to the tank is the same or nearly as the one in the tank. This applies to the s.g. too BTW. Let me know what the test results are for NO3 and dKH before and about an hour later. The dKH of the water you are adding should "naturally" be around 6. That is when you mix our salt with RO it should come out to about 6. Albert Albert, Will let you know about the tests before and after. BTW, the ORP this am is 482! My Corals are really hating that dKH, I guess! As far as the "magic finger" goes, right now as mad as stuff in there is , I need a whole "Wizard Outfit"! One of those hats with the stars and moons on it! Jola Jola, From the tests you give us results of, the tank is in great shape. Gee, a redox of 482 should set records. We _will_ figuire out what is causing the corals to not fully open. It may take a while but find out we will for sure. All the upheaval of switching things around could still be the reason but it is not likely. Pls add some iodine and some Liquid Gold. Thanks Albert Albert, I have added 1 tsp of LGP, 5 drops of Iodine, and a tbsp of KSM. Jola Jola, Thanks for letting me know. Lets add the KSM at least twice a week. I have given your two messages a lot of thought, both the one with the readings and the one describing the corals. What I propose we do is the following : --- Perform a water change of 10 % for 2 days in a row and measure the dKH before and about 1 hour after the water change. I would like to figure out where the high dKH is coming from. --- Let's leave the corals alone for the time being and see how they react after some calm in the tank and the water changes. --- Do a nitrate test before and after the water changes. Again wait an hour or so to do the one after the water change. Other than that let's leave the tank alone and see what differences we find. Overall conditions are good. We may have to do something about the lighting if the corals do not open enough but we can deal with this later. Albert Albert, I am "ROing" water right now for the changes. Will have everything prepared to make the water changes tommorrow afternoon. Jola Jola, Good. You will need 10 gallons twice. Hope your machine is running full time Albert Albert, Well, right now it is, and I told everybody around here just to shud up about it! If you want me to let the salt settle over night, it will be tommorrow before I can do the changes, though. I will have the water this evening. I had some water mixed up already , but it really was getting kinda old. Over 1 month in the vat. It smelled like plastic. So I dumped it out and am just making fresh. I used some of this old water for a water change in the fish only with no ill affects, but it did bother me. Jola Jola, Yes let the salt settle and perform the water changes tomorrow. It is much better to let it age rather than not, as not letting it age would just stress the corals more. Yes ... by all means ... tell them to shuuud uuuup ! On Thursday the following is arriving: 2 Amphiprion latezonatus 1 Heteractis crispa 1 Green Stripe Mushroom These are coming directly to you from CA from Sea Dwelling Creatures. Those who read these messages : SDC does not sell to hobbyists but you can ask your store to call them and order merchandise for you or you can do it through us if you wish. They have a great assortment of unusual corals so if you are in the market for something special let us know. Albert Albert, Im so excited!!!!! Finally , my beloved Black and White Clown Fishes!!!! They will be exquisite for sure!!!! Jola Jola, The anemone coming with them is a Heteractis crispa which is their favorite anemone. Preparing water and letting it stand for too long will indeed have that effect. You should not make so much IMO. Albert Albert,' It is not that I made so much . I just made up 18 or so gallons when we first started the Jo-Bert project. I didnt realize that it would be so long before we done any water changes. PS, Also, the reason that I even made up the 18 gallons, is because I thought, at the time, we would be changing 1% per day. Jola Jola No harm done. Just a pitty you had to dump the balance. Oh well, these things happen. Are you doing the water change today, or have you done it already? Pls advise. Tks. Albert Albert, Actually, as far as the tank is arranged, it now looks better than it did. It is taking on a very natural appearance. Kind of an organized chaos. Jola Jola : Reefs often do look like organized choas (my office does too ). Good to read that it is taking on the look it should. Before we increase the lighting to MH's I think we will change the bulbs and try the same set up with new bulbs not 7 month old ones. I will have them shipped to you tomorrow. All water that is sitting in vat and not used immediately should be aerated. Albert Albert, There is alot of powdery looking crud on the bottom of the tank under the rocks. What do I need to do about this? There is absolutely no way to get to it with a syphon hose. Jola Jola, Nothing to worry about. It is mineralized material that is harmless and that you cannot get out unless you blow it out with a power head and then trap it in a mechanical filter. There really is no need to do so though. Albert Albert, Test results before a 10 gallon water change are as follows: ORP-477 Nitrate- >10ppm pH- 8.33 dKH-12 degrees Jola Albert, Test results 1 hour after a 10 gallon water change are as follows: pH- 8.33 dKH- 13 degrees OPR- 470 SG- 1.025 Nitrate- 9ppm Jola Jola : Well to be honest with you this does not make a lot of sense to me. What I mean is the fact that the dKH is going up rather than down. I will have to talk to you about this and see if we can figure out what is actually going on. The nitrates have gone down from over 10 to 9, that is good and normal. The ORP recuperated quickly which is good. The pH stabilized around the same number which is good too. The only thing that bothers me to be frank with you is the dKH. I will talk to you about this. Albert Albert, All corals are still in general mad, although Elegance #1 does look better and more open. Jola Jola : I guess I understand what you mean by the corals are mad : they are not fully open. For the benefit of others following these messages though could you describe their degree of being open a little more in detail. Thanks Albert Albert, Just finished changing 10 more gallons of water. Elegance #1 , as I said, is much more open than it was, although not as open as I have seen it. Elegance #2, is closed, not tightly, but closed none the less, it looks like it has thrown up some of its zooxanthelle, because I see this stuff on it in a few places that looks like flower pollen. The Leather is about 1/2 the size that it was. The Brain is doing great! The Bubble is changing colors, 3/4 of it is a chalky yellow color, the other 1/4 of it is a beige pink color. It is not inflated, but not dead eather. The Ricordia is still reaching for the light. Jola Albert, When I was changing the water , I noticed that the water out of the tank looked very very light yellow. Even when I done water change #2 5 hours later, the water had that same cast to it. Jola Jola Do you mean the water in the aquarium looks yellow. If that is the case then we need to put carbon in the system to remove the yellowing compounds. If this is what you meant then pls add about 250 grams of carbon to the system. Rinse it well before adding it. Albert Albert, Well, no , that is really not what I mean, but , the water in the bucket, which is a white bucket, looked very pale yellowey. It does not appear yellow in the tank. Jola Jola It seems to me from the description that you do have yellowing compounds in the water. My suggestion to put in carbon therefore holds. Use about 250 grams. Are you sure your skimmer is running properly? If it is the water should really not be turning yellow. You may have to adjust the output of the skimmer especially now that you put the new venturi in. Let me know what changes you are making. Albert Albert, Yes, the skimmer seems to be doing a fine job. Just foams and foams. Jola Jola Good. Is the color of what comes out dark, real dark or is it clear ? Albert Albert, The stuff in the skimmer cup right now is sort of a darkish beige. Jola Jola, Is that much different from what the color used to be or is it about the same? I can't remember whether it was real dark at some point or not. Albert Albert, Test results after water change #2 are as follows: dKH- 12 degrees ORP- 466 Nitrate- 9ppm Ca - 555 I tested the saltwater in the vat and the dKH was 15 degrees. Jola Jola : Well I think we are onto something here. If the water in the vat had a dKH of 15 then I would make sense that adding it to the tank is not going to lower the dkH. I am going to try and duplicate this in the office and will get back to you. The dKH of that water should not be that high. I will let you know what I find out. Am surprised that the nitrate level did not go down after water change number 2. I should have. Can you run the test again for me tomorrow or so. Thanks. Use the dilution method. From all the messages left in the last two day I can only surmize two things: - either we need to put carbon in the system - or we need to put a stronger skimmer on the tank. I will discuss it with you after you let me know how the animals are doing. Albert Albert, Okay, when I -finally- returned , I updated you on the condition of the reefies, things seem to be feeling better! I will wait until tommorrow to reconfirm that they are indeed better and if you think that I should still add the carbon. After seeing an improvement , figured I would wait about adding the carbon until I got you opinion. Jola Jola That is fine with me. Let's wait and see how things are tomorrow. Of course you will be messing around in the tank again to place what is arriving but that should be all right. Look forward to hearing how things are doing. Sounds like the corals are getting back to normal. Albert Albert, I had intended on bumping the heater up and adding some carbon to the system when I got home from work, then I ended up getting home at 10pm. So, at 11:30pm , I bumped the heater and will let you know what the temp is up to tommorrow. Now, when I got home, one set of lights had been off for about 30 minutes, so everything was starting to go into their "night mode" But...... everything was looking better!!!! Elegance #2 was looking not quite so closed up and the leather looked better than it has in a long while!!!! It was about 2" in diameter bigger than it has been . The Bubble still looks the same. Will give another report on stuff tommorrow when the lights have been on for a little while. Jola Jola : Right you are. With the lights off for a while there is not much you can do or see. Let's determine tomorrow what action to take. I will look for your update in terms of what everything looks like after the lights have been on for a few hours. Yes pls give us an accurate description of how everything looks after you have had a chance to observe all the corals with the lights on for a few hours. That will give us all a much better idea of what the status is. Andy's suggestion on the light may very well turn out to be the key here. We may have to change the bulbs. At some point MH may be necessary but I am not sure yet. Let's decide when we find out what the corals do after a fluorescent tube change. I have not ordered the bubls yet. Waiting to determine which ones. Will need to talk to you to settle on a right mix. The Bubble still looks the same .... does that mean it is retracted and does not show its bubbles or the bubbles are small? Do you see any deterioration to the coral at all. I did not like that piece from the day it came in and it seems it has never really done very well unless things have changed. Leather corals need some phosphate in the water and we may have lowered the PO4 too much for it hence its not so good appearance. Since you have taken the X products out we should know quite quickly how things affect it. Do you still have all the small hermit crabs running around? Albert Albert, Test results at 11:30 pm are as follows: dKH- 12 degrees ORP- 465 Nitrate- 8ppm Jola Jola : Thanks for the test results. Seems like the Nitrates have come down somewhat after the water changes, not much but a little anyway. The ORP is definitely holding up. I guess the pH must have been in the 8.3 range since you did not mention anything about I assume it was normal. Was it? You ought to do a dissolved oxygen test today if you have the time. Thanks Albert Albert, I did forget to mention the pH. At 11:30 last night , it was 8.44. Right now , at 10:30 am, the pH is 8.25. The ORP is 475. O2 is 8mg/L. Jola Jola, Those results are all excellent. At the temp you are running the tank the O2 is way over the saturation point so the water is definitely not loaded with high organics hence the high ORP and the clearer foam in the skimmer. Albert Albert, At 5:00pm the temp is at 82 degrees. Jola Jola, Any noticeable effect on the animals vs before? Albert Albert, I did go ahead and add 1 cup of carbon to the system, I could tell by looking through the long ends of the tank that the water was still yellow. I hope this will pull this out. Right now , at a little after 8 pm here are some observations: The Bubble looks better and more " Bubbly" than it has in a long while, although , it is still colored the same. You know, the 1/2 Beigy/Pink and the 3/4 white. The Leather is still alot more open than it was , although it is reaching towards the light. Elegance #1 is all open , yet reaching toward the light. Elegance #2 is pulling away from the base on one side. The smaller Clown, Fred, is in the Anemone. The larger Clown, Wilma, is swimming back and forth, right now, she will go to the Anemone though and woller it after while. Most of the time when Wilma goes to the Anemone, Fred gets out of it and watches. When Wilma is through, he goes back and wollers some more. Jola Jola How are those Actinodiscus Mushrooms doing ? Albert Albert, The Mushrooms seem to be doing just fine, I have them at the highest point in the tank, so they are not reaching for the light like other stuff is. Jola Jola, Seems like a good spot to place them indeed. Let's see how they react to the new lighting. Keep us posted. Thanks. Thank for the overview of the animals state in the tank. As we agreed upon and as I posted in other messages a few things need to be done. -- Changing the lights -- Treating the Elegance Good of you to put the carbon in. We have to take a good look at how you have that skimmer set up as it should remove yellowing matter from the tank. Pls try to re-adjust the skimmer so it takes out thicker foam. I am going to send you another venturi to put on the skimmer to see if we can improve its efficiency. Yellowing matter should come out and not remain in the aquarium. Albert Albert, I have adjusted the skimmer to where it skims the water longer. This should make the foam that is produced be darker , right? Jola Jola, Yes it should. Pls let me know what the outcome is. Thank you. The foam should be drier and darker now. The fact that the foam coming out is creamish tells me that some yellowing matter is being taken out but obviously not all of it. We need to resolve that. Either you are going to need another skimmer or as I indicated we can try another venturi first. The behavior of the clowns seems totally normal. Mine did not make it. It was tiny tiny and got stressed in shipment as it came in in a broken bag. I will advise Eric (although I had already told him on the phone that it was severely stressed). Albert Albert, This is such a shame! Poor little thing, I think this is the only thing about the hobby that I do not like. All the work that is involved does not bother me, it is when stuff dies. Jola Jola, These things happen and cannot be avoided. This one came in in a broken bag with lot of the water missing and very stressed. I faxed Eric and let him know. Unfortunately he does not have any left! Albert Albert, The skimmage used to be real dark brown. Jola Jola, I could of course be that the water is pure enough and that no real high organic load is present hence the different color of the foam. If the skimmer is running properly then foam should be produced and its color can vary. After you do a DO test we will know more. How about 5 175 watt 10 000 K bulbs at 459.00 each ? That would be just right I think Albert Albert, Well, hey, you may as well go for the gusto, then!!! How about the 20,000k MH bulbs made by Iwasaki? Dont know about the cost , but Ill take 20,000k over 10,000k any day of the week! ! Jola Jola, Is it because the number is bigger? I like the 10 000 K better from the type of light they give off. The 20K are very blue and when I saw one in operation except for the clams nothing else seemed to open very much. But if you still want 20 K, I can write you a check Albert Jola How much are MHs in the States. I found that over here (and MHs are expensive here!), its actually cheaper to run a MH rather than flor's. I found I needed at least 6 tubes running and that they needed replacing every 6 months max (about 3 for actinic). Let me give you an example ... tubes are around L10 - L20. So let's say L120 per six months. A MH bulb is around L80 and lasts for 6 - 8 months, A ballast for a MH (including the first bulb) is L160. Ballasts for tubes are L20. In a very short time, MHs play for themselves. Also with the range of 5500K, 6500K, 10K and 20K MH bulbs we are having real choices that allow us to match our animals with the light source. Check your piggy bank (or do you eat those as well ) and go for it. Just MHO. Andy Andy , You really lost me on this for sure! Ask Albert about the cost of MH vs Floursents here. He would know dollars vs pounds as well. Jola Albert, It is now 10:30 am, so the lights are not on yet. The Bubble is all open, I can see its mouth which is an oval about 1" long. It has all these little bubbles around the whole parameter. It does not look deterorated at all, to me anyway. Jola Jola : No that seems fine to me too. Looks like the Bubble is OK and that nothing is wrong with it. It may just be a real small one. Let's see how it does when the lights come on. Albert Albert, I did take the X products out yesterday morning. Yes, I see crabs running around busy all the time. Jola Jola, Good. Let's leave the X ones out for a while. Crabs still doing well then. I guess you do not have any algae either as a result. Thanks Albert Albert, Nope, no algae that I can tell! I do wonder about a little bit of algae being good to have for the fishes to have to "graze " on. Jola Jola : No algae. Good. Those crabs are really doing a job indeed! What fish Jola ? Just kidding. IF you had grazers in there that would be a good idea indeed. Albert Albert, Yes, I know that I dont have any grazers, I was just thinking about this in general, since alot of folks do have some sort of a Tang or maybe some other type of grazer. You know how it is , you say "algae" and it is like saying a 4 letter word! When grazers would probably appreciate the added "bonus" if it can be kept under control. Jola Jola That is correct. You do have grazers though. In fact you have quite few of them. All your hermit crabs. They seem to be doing a pretty good job at keeping everything under control as far as I can tell from your messages. My problem with common grazers, especially _Zebrasoma_ type Tangs, is that they are so prone to stress and parasitic infestations. My personal thinking is to avoid them if one can and rely on other means to keep the algae in check. You certainly have mananged to do so up to now as far as I can tell from your messages. There are other type of grazer than Tangs. When we get to adding more fish we will put those in. Albert Albert, At 8pm the SG is 1.025 , the pH is 8.46, and the temp is 82 degrees. Jola Jola What are you using to measure your s.g. ? Readings look good for that time of day! Albert Albert, You just HAD to mention salt meters, didnt you? You know discussing salt meters gets me to gripeing! I use a Sea Test swing arm kind. I do hate that &*^%%^ !!! I have 2 of these and both test different. So I dont know if eather one is even close to right. Jola Jola, I did not mean to make you mad and throw your saltmeters against the wall and stamp on them and then use hammer to really rip them up I know that s.g. meters are tricky. I was just wondering. One can buy the glass variety ones which are much more accurate from Cole Parmer. I will have to look the Cat. # up in the office. I think it cost around $ 30.00 or so. I would like a DO reading too when you give the test results. Tks. It was good to hear that the corals are starting to do better again. To summarize our discussion: it appears from the symptoms you describe and from the manner in which the corals are opening, all stretching upwards, that it is indeed the lighting that is at fault and that your bulbs are in need of replacement. What I would like you to use is: 2 actinic (Philips) 03 2 Ultralume 75's or 65's depending on which ones you can find The combination will give us high daylight plus actinic blue. Albert Albert, Well, IMO, floursents are just not sufficient lighting for a reef tank, the reefie creatures seem to be just to dependant on lighting. The inital spending of $$$ would be alot more up front, but after a couple of years buying floursent tubes, MH would pay for itself, not to mention your reef giving you more pleasure in its appearance. Am I wrong in stating this? Now, I am talking about a deeper tank compaired to say a 20 gallon, where floursent lighting would probably be fine . Much less depth to penetrate. Jola Jola : The tank is now running at the higher temp. which should enable you to put more KW in the tank as that should have increased evaporation. Can you let us know what the temp now is, and what the DO is. Thanks Albert Albert, The temp. is a little less than 82 degrees, the DO is 8mg/L. Jola Jola, That is very very good. Supersaturation is really high. High DO's at 82 degrees tell me the tank is running well indeed. It would appear that the one Elegance coral, the second one that came in has a bacterial or fungal infection. This needs to be treated or it will progress and the whole coral will be lost. In addition KSM should be added to the tank every day. Do you have enough KSM for at least a one week treatment? Here is the suggested treatment method for your Elegance coral -take a few gallons of water from the tank -place in container -put Elegance in that container -add 1/4 tsp of Redox + liquid per gallon -leave the Elegance in there for 30 min. -do so twice a day for two days -after the 30 min place the coral back in the tank Let us know how things progress Albert Albert, I done this procedure 1 time, the Elegance just got worse to the point that I was afraid that it would start affecting the water quality. I felt that there was really no choice but to eliminate the coral . I did not feel that I could risk polluting the whole tank. The Elegance had really gotten pretty bad. Still this did bother me, but I felt it was the right decision. Jola Jola : Yes it was indeed. From what you describe it would appear to me that the coral got damaged in transportation and that you did not notice it or that it got damaged when being moved around the tank although the former is more likely than the latter. You did the right thing. When a coral starts to deteriorate so bad that it just seems you cannot save it, it is indeed best to remove it and dispose of it before it starts to affect the water quality and then all the other animals in the tank. Albert Jola, The venturi I am going to send you is a Mazzei 1/2 inch one. It is an injection molded one (the same as we use on our new TAT skimmers). It can easily be added to the skimmer you have with some flex hose and clamps. When it arrives, let me know whether you need help to install it. The direction of the flow is indicated on the valve itself by an arrow. I do not know whether the Rio 2100 will be strong enough for it though. You may have to use the 2500. Albert Albert, Sounds good, no problem in using the 2500 to run it if I need to. Jola Jola, I will send the Mazzei venturi off to you on Monday. The installation will be relatively easy. All you will need is flexible hose and 2 clamps to hold the flex in place. You may already have it. If not let me know and I will send the clamps too unless you can find them locally. Albert Albert, If you do have some clamps , just stick them in with the valve. If you dont already have some, I can pick them up here, no biggie. Jola Jola, Are you still adding iodine to the tank and if so how much ? Albert Albert, I added 5 drops of Iodine yesterday. As I mentioned in another message, I would really appreciate it if you would do me another additive schedule because I am confused about this . Jola Jola, The iodine is necessary and you did well to add it. Yes, I will post another schedule of additives for you. Albert Albert, Thanks a bunch, this sort of thing does worry me. Jola Jola, You added carbon yesterday. Since we use real high quality carbon the tank's yellowing should be gone by now. Can you check. This will also tell us how much there was (plenty if the carbon has not removed it all yet). Albert Albert, It is really hard to determine if all the yellowing is gone. The water never did appear all that yellow in the tank to begin with. I didnt realize that it was yellow, until I took out the water doing the water changes. Jola Jola, We have a Yellowing test which allows you to determine very easily whether the water is even slightly yellow. I will send you one with the venturi. Instrucions are very simple. Albert Albert, The tank this am is SUPER cloudy! Can just barely even see in there without a flashlight! I think that Wilma is a little bit better , as far as I can tell anyway. She is at least out this morning instead of hiding. I would think that this is a good sign. Jola Jola, The cloudiness is more than likely due to the large additions of vitamin C (3 yesterday). You need to nothing about it at all. The skimmer will gradually take it out. Albert Albert, Today, the tank is clear again. Jola Jola, Good. Are you still adding C though ? Albert Albert, No , I have not added any C today, since the pH was dropping. Figured that I would wait until you told me what to do. Jola Jola : Since you had a sick fish in the tank for a while (unfortunately) it would pay IMO to continue the vitamin C treatment. You will need to watch the pH of course and buffer if necessary. Continue adding at the rate of 1000mg twice a day please. If you use the method I described with the baking soda you should not see too much of a pH drop. When doing so you are adding sodium ascorbate rather than ascorbic acid. Albert Albert, The only thing that concerns me right now adding the C is the problems that are being experienced with the dKH, Ca, and the pH. Would it not be better to try and get those parameters straightened out before adding something such as the Vit C that affects the pH as it does? Jola Jola : The C will lower the KH as well since it will react with the buffer and neutralize some of it just as the CO2 does. I agree though 17 is way too high. Use the C without the baking soda and let it dissolve in the tank. Did the skimmer remove more than usual while the cloudiness was there? Albert Albert, No, I cant tell that the skimmer is removing any more than usual. Jola Jola Based on your reply to my previous message we may change from the manual venturi to the Mazzei one. Somewhere down the line I may have you put one of our new TAT skimmers on the system. Let's first see how things go with this one, then with this one with the molded venturi and then decide what to do. How often do you have to empty the cup and what is the color of the skimmage now ? I know I have asked you this before but as we increased the load this can change and knowing what is happening now helps in determining whether the skimmer is operating efficiently or not. You are still running it with the white venturi I assume (the manually made one). Albert Albert,' Yes, Im still running the skimmer with the white venturi. I have to empty the cup about every 3 days, and it is still the lighter color. Jola Jola, For the time being let's leave it the way it is. We will decide on changing venturi later after we straighten the KH problem out. Albert Albert, Water conditions at 9am , June 26th are as follows: ORP- 445 pH- 8.12 O2- 8mg/L Nitrate- <8ppm These reading were taken 9 hours after the last Vit C was administered at 1000mg. As you can see the pH has been affected a little bit. Should I add any buffer before adding the reccommend dose of 2000mg today? Jola Jola : Since you are taking Wilma out continue dosing at 1000 mg and add some buffer first. The other readings look good. Glad to see the nitrate is starting to go down./ The DO is excellent especially considering the temp you are running the tank at. Now we just have to get the lighting situation straightened out. I will call Eric about the very very bad livestock he has been sending us. I am really very upset about this. I will keep you posted. Albert Albert, It is 11am, the lights have not yet come on. The pH is on 8.17 and the ORP is on 491. I think I better clean the probes today! I added some buffer yesterday, should I add some more if the reading is still this low after I clean the probes? What will adding buffer do to the alkalinity? Jola Jola : Those numbers are not bad considering you are adding C. Yes cleaning the probes and recalibrating the pH one is a good idea. If you add buffer the dKH will go up, so will the pH and the Calcium may come down. At 11:00 AM with the lights out that is not a bad reading for the pH considering that you are adding vitamin C. You can add more C. What is the dKH now ? Albert Albert, I havent got any calibrting solution to re-calibrate the pH monitor. At 4:35 pm, the pH is 8.25, the ORP is 466 and the dKH, are you ready for this, is 17 degrees! I believe that we may need to do something about this. Jola Jola : I can live with that pH and with that ORP but I find that the dKH and the calcium levels we have been getting as results do not jive. The last I remember is 525 ppm at a dKH of 13. That already seems very difficult to understand. Now that you came up with a dKH of 17 what kind of Ca++ do you come up with? Could you perform that test and let us all know. And yes, we need to do something about that dKH. Let's first see what the Ca++ is and then we will start to work on this as it seems necessary to do so indeed. Albert Albert, Ca is 405. Jola Jola, That figures indeed and is the normal reaction. When the dKH goes up the calcium goes down, just like when the pH goes down the ORP goes up. Albert Albert, Just an observation on this, then. If one thing going up makes something else go down, and visa versa, is it not a little difficult to stablize everything? Jola Jola : If you stabilize the parameters that need to be stabilized then the ones that get affected by it will remain stable too. E.g if you keep the pH within certain limits the ORP will stay within certain limits too. The increase in dKH could come from the addition of vitamin C and baking soda BTW so do not be alarmed at the number and where it is coming from. I am pleased to inform you that you will be receiving a fixture containing 2 10,000K 175 watt bulbs and actinic lights compliments of Energy Savers as their contribution to this Jo-Bert project. This light will be shipped to you free of charge. It should arrive by the end of this week. I guess that is pretty good news especially on your birthday. Before installing the new light over the tank we will need to review a few things in terms of water quality: -- Adding this kind of lighting over the tank is going to create an environment that is totally different from what the corals have been used to -- They have never seen this much light. As as result we cannot subject them to this high intensity right from the start. -- We need to gradually introduce them to this light. -- A progressive increase is therefore recommended. I will post it in another message. In addition to the progressive increase in lighting, we need to make sure that the water nutrient level is real low or we will have algae outbreaks. Of course with the snails and the crabs we do have some protection and margin. Albert Albert, At this point, Im not sure how many crabs and snails are in there. You know how they tend to disappear amoung the rocks. I do know that I have to use the algae magnet about once a week, its not really bad, mind you, but you know how clean I like for things to be! Jola Jola Yes I know it is hard to keep track of them. I can't locate half of mine either! On the cleanliness: yes I do remember walking into your porch door thinking there was none that's how clean it was and breaking my glasses as I am sure YOU remember! Albert ALL RIGHTS RESERVED - FOR REVIEW ONLY - NO RIGHTS GRANTED This file is distributed by PetsForum Group through its forums on CompuServe for personal use only. Other distribution or use requires the written permission of the copyright holder and the PetsForum Group.