ICTP - International Centre for Theoretical Physics, Trieste, Italy

INTERVIEW WITH PROFESSOR MIGUEL ANGEL VIRASORO by Faheem Hussain, ICTP High
Energy Section and Editor of News from ICTP
In spite of a very heavy schedule on his first full day of work at the ICTP
on June 5 1995 when he presided over the opening ceremony of the Workshop
on S-Duality and Mirror Symmetry, Prof. Virasoro found time to talk to us
about his career, his work, his philosophy and his plans for the ICTP.
Below we present extracts from the interview. We believe that our readers
will find this interview very interesting. We started off by asking Prof.
Virasoro about his background and the reasons why he left his home country
and how and why he came to live in Italy.
VIRASORO: I was born in Argentina and I did all of my education there,
including my Ph.D. with Professors J.J. Giambiagi* and C.G. Bollini. As you
know, Argentina has gone through a very difficult political situation with
episodic, periodic military governments. I had to leave the country for the
first time after the military coup in 1967, essentially not because of any
danger to my person, but because all of the University Professors had left.
I decided to go abroad and complete my education, so I went first to
Israel, to the Weizmann Institute, and then to the United States. From the
United States in 1971, we decided to go back to Argentina; I say 'we'
because there was a group of people involved. It was the end of that
particular military regime. The military dictatorship had already decided
to call for elections and so we went back and got involved in politics;
perhaps a bit too much, as I realized later. In 1973 the elections took
place, and I was immediately nominated "interventor" of the Faculty of
Science, a kind of political position -- a very powerful position, because
it was the end of the military government. That was a very stimulating
period, and an extremely politicized one. Looking back on it, today I would
do things a bit differently. We were overoptimistic. In fact, the situation
deteriorated very, very fast. By 1976 there was a new military coup.
Already in August-September 1975 I felt that a new period of dicatatorship
was coming, so I left Argentina again, planning to go back after a while.
But the new military regime was very repressive and harsh, so I could not
go back. In my first period of exile in the United States, I had changed my
field of research. I switched from Elementary Particle Physics to
Oceanography, thinking of going back to Argentina and applying there what
could be useful for a country like that. But, as I said, the situation
changed in such a way that I decided to try and settle in Europe. I went
for one year to Paris, and then I came to Italy. And from then on, I have
stayed in Italy, first in Turin and then in Rome. HUSSAIN: Did you do the
work for which you are famous, which led to String Theory and the algebra
that is named after you, in Argentina or the United States?
VIRASORO: I was in the United States, in Wisconsin at that time. I was
working with Bunji Sakita and C. Goebel. It was at the beginning of the
dual models. One could not even talk about String Theory at that moment,
but only of the dual models. We had already worked on what could be a
precursor of the dual model in Israel in 1968. In fact, in July 1968 we did
a piece of work that led to the Veneziano formula. In August-September
1968, I went to the United States and from then on until '71, I worked
almost exclusively on this subject. It was a very exciting moment and it
was rather easy to do important things. It is not such a big deal to do
important things, when you are there at the right moment. However in '71,
as I have already said, I decided to go back to Argentina and I changed my
philosophy; I had realized that even if that subject, dual models, was very
fruitful, what I had to do was almost 'given' to me. I realized at that
moment that there are two kinds of scientific situations; there is an area
in which the problem may be very difficult, but everybody knows what the
problem is. And that is a technical situation; if you are very able
technically, then you succeed. But, perhaps, if you do not succeed, then
someone else succeeds, perhaps one month later. It's very clear what is the
direction to proceed in. It is as if the road is very much constrained. Now
I prefer to work in situations where the direction is not clear, that is in
fields where the road is not constrained at all.
HUSSAIN: That means you do not work in particle physics any more. VIRASORO:
That is right. I am working now in complexity theory, in which you try to
find order where it is not given, or where there is no order. You try to
find patterns of behaviour. It is not given what these patterns of
behaviour should be. It is not clear what the strategy should be.
HUSSAIN: Let us move away from physics questions and go back to the ICTP.
How does it feel to come here as the Director, after 30 years of
directorship by Professor Abdus Salam? VIRASORO: I can honestly say that it
is a very difficult and challenging heritage. Abdus Salam has been one of
the most creative minds, not only in science but also in politics.
Therefore, I think it will be very difficult to try to follow his road as
he drew it. I will try and do my best. My idea now is that we should try to
consolidate the various activities at the Centre. We should prune some of
the many efforts that have been made in the past, in order to retain the
best parts and allow them to push much faster and better. HUSSAIN: Do you
mean that the ICTP expanded too quickly in too many different directions?
VIRASORO: That is correct, although I will reserve my judgment until I see
all the aspects more clearly. But I do believe that now we should choose
some directions rather than others. The other point is that the relations
between the Third World and the first world have changed somewhat. In a
sense, now it is more reasonable to talk about a dialogue, rather than
assistance. I mean that it is very important to insist that the voices of
scientists in the Third World be heard. It seems to me that one of the
serious problems that we have, particularly in theoretical physics, is that
people in the developed countries tend to ignore what is being done in the
Third World. So we should stress that it is not a question of just helping;
it is a question of real respect and dialogue between both communities.
Then, we should also distinguish the different levels of development in the
Third World, because there are countries which are obviously much behind
than others. I think that countries like India, Argentina and Brazil are
countries for which we should not simply talk any more about helping. We
should talk about really integrating them in the whole system and that they
should be considered partners with equal rights and equal duties.
HUSSAIN: In fact, also China can be included in the list. Countries like
these could reciprocate co-operation with the ICTP. VIRASORO: Absolutely.
What the ICTP has to do with them is to go for some kind of mutual
co-operation, rather than just one-way assistance. I also believe that the
Centre can help to mobilize human resources. Scientists from Third World
countries resident in the West could enormously help in this cooperation.
Do you know that it is claimed that 75% of the scientists in the United
States are from the Third World? We should mobilize this tremendous human
capital so that these scientists can help their own countries, instead of
perpetuating the division between those who have left and those who have
stayed, which in the long run is a losing attitude. You cannot prevent
people from leaving, but I think that those who have left their countries
and gone somehow to the first world, still keep an interest and want to
help their native countries. They can do tremendous things for the Third
World countries. They can orient them. They can go back from time to time
to work in institutes in their home countries. They can give them
counselling and advice, if requested. They can be part of the boards that
more or less govern the scientific groups in these countries. There are
dozens of ways of integrating these people, and I think that the best thing
to do is to forget about this division and try to bring them together.
HUSSAIN: Nevertheless, the brain-drain is still a worry. The ICTP has
helped with programmes like the Associate Scheme, Federation Agreements, in
trying to keep physicists in their home countries with the opportunity to
come here every once in a while. I think the ICTP has done a good job. What
do you think about these schemes? VIRASORO: The point is that, in many
cases, people who have left their countries of origin would be very happy
to go back if certain conditions were met. But many times these conditions
cannot be met, for instance, because of the economic situation of the
country. The ICTP has helped enormously to combat the brain-drain, and it
will continue to do so. And that is extremely important. The Associate
Scheme has been one of the big successes and we will continue with it. In
fact when I went back to Argentina in 1971, I went back as an Associate
Member of the ICTP. Therefore, I am absolutely adamant about the idea that
we should give scientists this possibility. Also right now there are so
many scientists, natives from Third World countries, working in senior
positions in the USA, France, UK, Germany, and so on, who they themselves
can try to develop some kind of Associateship scheme for someone who comes
from a Third World country to study with them and would like to go back to
work in his own country. They could promise: "If you want to come back to
work in this country, you can do so for so many months each year for so
many years and we will provide the financial support." We should try to go
ahead and organize the scientists from the Third World who are working in
the first world. For instance, organize those who have passed through the
ICTP by finally materializing the idea of 'Friends of the ICTP', or even
launch a new programme. For example, we are thinking of running special
programmes with some countries in the Mediterranean basin. We could ask
people from those countries, who are now working in the West, to help us in
implementing these programmes. They would then work together with the
scientists who are present in the countries themselves.
HUSSAIN: We have generally covered the relationship the ICTP has had with
the Third World. What else do you think the ICTP can do -- in other words,
what other plans do you have for helping science in the Third World?
VIRASORO: I believe one of the important things today is communication. We
are at such a level that it is unacceptable that scientists in any country
should not be able to reach us via e-mail. This is something very specific
in which the ICTP can help a lot. It may be somewhat complicated from the
point of view of political and economic considerations, because if you
create the network, how can you prevent it from being used by someone who
is not from the academic community? Still, I believe we could do with an
e-mail that is an ASCII kind of pure text transmission, a simple e-mail
connection. This is a simple way to beat isolation. I think that this is
just the right thing to do to further our aim of helping the dialogue.
There is also the problem of helping to develop research in countries which
are still at the initial stage. That we will continue to do in the
traditional way, by bringing people here for training courses,
postdoctorates, diplomas, etc. All of that is very useful at the initial
stage of scientific development. Then, when 2, 3 or 4 persons in these
countries have achieved a certain level of training, a certain ability to
do research, we would like them to have privileged access, and I think that
here communication is very important. We cannot do anything today if we do
not count on these new ways of communication. HUSSAIN: How do you see the
relationship of the ICTP, apart from its connection with the Third World,
with scientific institutions in Italy and Europe?
VIRASORO: This is a very crucial question. I would like Italy to realize
what kind of thing they have in their territory. I think Trieste is much
better known in Saudi Arabia than in the rest of Italy. This is
unbelievable but, in fact, the other day I was talking to Professor H.
Schopper** who said he had just been to Saudi Arabia and that the two
international institutions they knew there, were CERN and the ICTP. I think
this is something to be really proud of. Unfortunately, we have not been
able to transmit this pride to the Italian people, although the Italian
Government has been very generous. In fact, enlightened. As far as our
relations to Europe are concerned, I believe that we have to make a big
effort to address European concerns, for example concentrating on regions
in which Europe feels that more urgent action is required. For this reason,
we will try to do something in the Mediterranean basin with a specific
project. In classical times, the Mediterranean was the bridge through which
all of culture was transmitted. It was like a freeway of communication.
Nowadays it is a real barrier. You change cultures completely when you
cross the Mediterranean. One of our first priorities therefore is to make a
specific project for the Mediterranean basin. We will be doing more or less
the same kind of things that we do in the rest of the world, but with more
concentration. In particular, I will try to develop three projects. One is
to help the reconstruction of Lebanon, which is in a very delicate phase at
this moment. The city, the old buildings that were destroyed are being
re-built, but the university system still has to start, and research in
particular needs to begin from zero. Secondly we will also help Professor
Fubini to organize a Palestine-Israeli conference. And then there is the
idea of developing some affiliated centres in Northern Africa.
HUSSAIN: One of the things you mentioned on the first day you came to talk
to us at the ICTP was about how to improve the funding. VIRASORO: This is
one of the first priorities. If you ask me what is a summary of my ideas in
this regard, I would say it is to make the ICTP truly international and I
mean that the funding should be more international than it is now. We are
really very, very happy with the Italian support, but we should not rely on
one single country, so we have to develop other sources of funding. Now it
seems to me that one way of doing that is an analytical continuation of
something that has been done before, that is, to ask for funding for
specific programmes. This is another reason why we are going to try and
launch more specific programmes, to submit these programmes to governments
and see whether we can get support from them. Eventually, some of these
countries may realize that what we are doing is reasonable and in their own
interest. Then they might wish to get more involved, and for that our offer
could be to become members of our Steering Committee and thus our partners.
HUSSAIN: In fact, the total budget of the ICTP is not at all high, in terms
of dollars. It comes to between US$15 to 20 million per year. As you said,
the ICTP should be financed internationally. If many of the Third World
countries would only give half or 1 million dollars per year, we could have
a large amount of money. Could we not set up a permanent fund of this sort?
VIRASORO: Yes, we could. Incidentally, the Third World Academy of Sciences
has developed this modality which has proved successful. We are going to
request countries that are already half-way to development, like India,
Argentina, Brazil and China, to give us financial support, because that
would be the proof that they are really doing their own part. But then we
could also discuss whether this money should go to some kind of affiliated
centres somewhere around the world or whether it should be brought here.
That's a completely open problem. Perhaps we should not concentrate all of
the administration here. If these countries want to develop some regional
centres, we could help them to start such centres which would be affiliated
with the ICTP.
HUSSAIN: Many people and many administrators in the Third World have been
asking: What is the use of theoretical physics and basic sciences in the
Third World? There has always been doubt put on that, because the Third
World has been regarded as needing only engineering and technology. What is
your view on this? VIRASORO: This question does not have a simple answer,
but it does have an answer. And the answer is positive; I do believe that
theoretical physics plays a positive role in the developing countries.
First of all, I am always surprised that people who ask this question never
doubt the importance of having theatres. And this is one aspect of the
answer -- culture. This is not just a way of escaping the question; it
means that the kind of culture that you see developing in Third World
countries is very 'a-scientific', with no contact with science. The absence
of this contact with science has a tremendous influence on the way people
think and act politically. For instance, one of the things that every
natural scientist knows is that something that is not 100% right is not
necessarily wrong. If something is not 100% right, it means that it is an
approximation, but it may be a very good approximation, and one should not
just disregard it. Now, if you ask this question among intellectuals that
have always been discussing philosophy, literature, etc. they will not
understand what you are talking about. This is something that is extremely
important, because in the language of science quantities are real numbers;
they are not just yes-or-no problems. Therefore, in the language of science
you have a much larger way to reach agreements than by talking another
language in which you see only right or wrong. I remember so many
discussions about where we should start from, and somebody always wanted to
start from postulates. We know that there is only one science that starts
from postulates, while all the other sciences start from real facts, some
small correction to these real facts, some modelling of these real facts
plus working hypotheses, etc. I think that the development of science as an
essential ingredient of culture is extremely important for the Third World
countries. The second aspect which is rather specific is that theoretical
physics has always set a very high standard of quality. So the point is --
and I know this by experience -- that if you decide that you are going to
do only the part of science that applies to your particular country, then
there is a lack of an international standard, because you are doing very
useful science but a science that applies to a very specific situation. In
such a case there is no possibility of quality control by your peers. Then
you cannot realize whether you are really doing high-level or low-level
research. And unfortunately, many times, when one insists too much on doing
extremely applied things, one finally develops low-level applied science,
which is not good for anyone. Still, I must say that there are certain
subjects in theoretical physics that are better suited than others for
scientists who would like to work in developing countries. There can be
certain subjects in which, for instance, whatever you do is important
because of the particular geographical situation in which you are working.
Let me give you an example of a subject that I had chosen after some
discussions I had when I returned to Argentina -- oceanography.
Oceanography is a subject in which you can use the full machinery of
theoretical physics. You can even use Feynman diagrams, because they are
used to study gravity waves in the ocean. You can do very sophisticated
statistical mechanics arguments; you can develop all the theory of
turbulence, which is extremely important to oceanography, as are the
techniques of renormalization groups. It is a very challenging subject, and
one which is obviously extremely suitable for any country lying on an
ocean. Let us talk about my particular experience in my own country,
Argentina, which is on the Southern Atlantic. The Southern Atlantic was not
modelled at all, because not enough information was available. For this
reason, anything that could be done on that particular area was extremely
important, both in Argentina and elsewhere. This is something that one
should take into account. On the other hand, I want to stress that
experience has shown that one should not constrain anyone to do research in
a particular subject. I mean that each person should decide for himself
what he wants to do, because research is not something which you can
programme yourself to do.
HUSSAIN: How do you see Trieste and the ICTP, located near the Balkans, in
the part of Europe which is locally called 'Mitteleuropa'? We are in a
frontier area, near a region which is now at war, and at the end of a
century marked by disasters all around. Is there something we can do to
help former Yugoslavia? VIRASORO: There was a Lebanese physicist who died
very young, Rammal. Looking at the civil war in Lebanon, he said, "The only
hope we have is that intelligence finally prevails." And the only thing I
can say about these crazy things that are going on is that I share Rammal's
hope. If so, I think Trieste has a brilliant future as a cross-roads. We
should try to make use of all of the investment that Trieste has made in
science, so that science can continue to flourish here. This would not be
the responsibility of the ICTP alone, but of all the various institutions
located in Trieste. Together with the authorities of Trieste, we should
think of ways of benefiting from the good effects of all the concentration
of research facilities in this area. The local authorities are very
interested in this - I found Illy (the Mayor of Trieste), in particular,
very concerned about this fact. He wants to see something coming out of all
the expertise available in Trieste.

   * Prof. J.J. Giambiagi has been an ICTP Associate Member and A Member of
     the ICTP Scientific Council.
        o Former Director General of CERN.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   BACK to News from ICTP